Intermediate Superbike - Please Read

[Ryan Whittle]

Going over teh results from this past weekend shows that we have some of the strongest grids in Intermediate 600 and Intermediate Open Supersport. However, when you look at Intermiediate Superbike, the grids are about 1/3 of what they are for the 600 and Open class.

I would like some feedback as to why this is the case and some suggestions on how it can be rectified. Is it due to the combined grid? I have been involved with this club for 5 years now and this is the first time that I can recall there being a significant difference in the grid size for different Intermediate classes.

Your feedback is greatly appreciated.

[Jayson]

Ryan, the feedback I got as I was trying to round up grid fillers last weekend was that most of the eligible riders were worried about getting lapped by the pros or affecting the results. Some of the riders were just too tired and hot, with several dropping out mid afternoon on Sunday.

[Brett]

I'm way too slow and I don't like the combined grids.

[Jaybo]

Last round I opted out because of the heat and the cost. I certainly like doing the first superbike race as it's a race before lunch.

[Ryan Whittle]

Would more of you enter if it were not a combined grid?

I know it was hot out there, I guess we will see in September if the lower grid sizes were an annomaly or not.

[nac.00]

also not a fan of the combined grid....probably would have entered otherwise

[Jaybo]

Personally the combined grid doesn't bother me.. it's far more likely to bother the fast guys i'm "racing" against...:behead

[Jacalyn]

Is it possible that some of the newly bumped novices into intermediate don't know that the Superbike race has both Intermediate and Expert categories?

Just wondering as I know it came as a surprise to me when I realized it was for both groups.

[Dean Thompson]

If there's insufficient numbers I understand why they're combined, but I don't like combined grids when there's enough riders to split it up. But if it's raining or too hot I don't race anyways, so who cares what I think, lol. :dance::hump:

[Ryan Welton]

I tried last year to round up the racers in INT600 and INT Open to join in on the Superbike race and the responses were that it was: A) Too fast = scary to be lapped B) Too much racing in one day when combined with 600, open, 118 etc C) Too expensive to run it as a first class then to add 600 and Open, D) Some riders did not want to run a 12 lap race.

I think SBK is fairly priced for the track time and the 12 lapper is no big deal as it is usually "over" after 6 or 7 laps. The fitter you are the better!

[Jayson]

the 12 lapper is no big deal as it is usually "over" after 6 or 7 laps. The fitter you are the better!

What race are you watching!!!! Rusty and I had 3 passes in the last 10 corners in SBK2 Sunday!

[amartin]

Your feedback is greatly appreciated.

You could try grouping racers based on capability rather than an appointed/graduated designation?

This could be accomplished by dropping intermediate and only having novice and expert.

In the morning there would be a QP. The results would determine the racers grid for all classes he/she enters.

Then run 'A' & 'B' versions of 600, Open and Superbike.

Only the 'A' races would pay contingency (which should prevent sandbagging and encourage racers to try harder). Those who don't quite have the times yet would probably end up in the slightly slower 'B' race.

If 'Classic Supersport' and 'Senior Superbike' could be combined with the '600' and 'Superbike', this approach might even save time during the day.

Better for *most* racers, potentially cheaper for the sponsors, more exciting for the spectators, and no less money for the club.

[adam0289]

i think we need to accept the fact we do not have enough racers for novice intermediate and expert. I think we need to hold back our novices longer and promote them straight to expert. current intermediates should be given the opportunity to move back to novice if they desire ( until they meet the new slightly higher standard required for expert) the balance of ints. move to expert.

[Ryan Welton]

Although this last point may be true ["i think we need to accept the fact we do not have enough racers for novice intermediate and expert"] . I believe that this will not encourage more trackday guys and gals to get into racing nor will it solve the issue that many of the intermediates do not want to be on the track with the "fast guys" yet. Everyone wants a class that they can be competitive in. Novice riders currently get 2 races/day and graduated novices may run F118 (if allowed). Our novice grid is full this year and this should lead to a good intermediate group for next season. The expert grid was lean this year too and with a few bumps next season there should be more black numbers out on the track...but those new "experts" may not want to race in Superbike.

I for one can not wait to get back out there!!!! As soon as my wife lets me that is :(

[Ryan Welton]

What race are you watching!!!! Rusty and I had 3 passes in the last 10 corners in SBK2 Sunday!

You are both fun to watch because you are both in great shape and are seriously competing. I did not get to see sundays race but the field does usually get streched out or have you not been looking at the results...you two are well ahead of the rest!:bow:

Chase you next year buddy!

[amartin]

Although this last point may be true ["i think we need to accept the fact we do not have enough racers for novice intermediate and expert"] . I believe that this will not encourage more trackday guys and gals to get into racing nor will it solve the issue that many of the intermediates do not want to be on the track with the "fast guys" yet.

No offence but I think you're missing our point. By qualifying at a certain speed you put yourself among similar paced racers. If anything this should make those intermediates MORE comfortable. Today we have 'intermediates' doing low 13's. We also have 'experts' doing 120's. I'm not saying anything is 'wrong' with those speeds, but its proof that a racers number color has nothing to do with their pace or ability to compete.


Everyone wants a class that they can be competitive in.


That's a nice idea, but maybe not realistic. When you try to provide that you get a bunch of weird classes with a small handful of bikes in them.
Unless you're capable of running at the front, you're just out having fun - which is what this should be all about. By having more guys to race with, I would think you'd be having more fun - and it's much better for those watching too. Getting on the grid with half a dozen bikes with 6 or 7 seconds seperating the fastest from the slowest isn't much of a race - its more like a parade.


Novice riders currently get 2 races/day and graduated novices may run F118 (if allowed). Our novice grid is full this year and this should lead to a good intermediate group for next season. The expert grid was lean this year too and with a few bumps next season there should be more black numbers out on the track...but those new "experts" may not want to race in Superbike.


Yeah, that's true and unfortunately some of those 'bumped' guys will not race next year. It seems to happen every year and I suspect it will continue to happen. We lost 2 fast experts this year and I know of 2 more that are thinking of quitting next year. I not sure how to prevent it completely but I would think retention should be near the top of the list for this little club.

[adam0289]

what happened to the idea of a bunch of guys showing up with there motorcycles and racing each other. are we really that lame that we need to start with 50 guys (on a good day)first divide them by motorcycle size, then skill level, then by age and now even by lap times(f 118). Not to be a prick but please can someone explain to me what sense of satisfaction comes from winning f118. if there was a hot trophy girl or a bag of money involved i get it.
can't we all just leave our purses at riders meeting get out there with a 20 rider grid and entertain a crowd. I would think a 12th in this would bring more satisfaction then winning f118.

[Mel]

Not to be a prick but please can someone explain to me what sense of satisfaction comes from winning f118. if there was a hot trophy girl or a bag of money involved i get it.

I'm not in it for a hot trophy girl and - God knows - not for the money, but I'd argue that winning any race if the weekend before you finished 2nd, 3rd or 5th against the same riders is an encouraging sign. I hesitate to use the word 'satisfaction' as to me it implies not wanting to improve beyond a certain skill level or ability, and I'd be surprised if any of us don't want to keep improving every time we go out on the track.

I do take your point, however, and I think some simplification of all the different class structures we have could be necessary.

[dammyneckhurts]

I see in this thread a few mentions of dropping Intermediate and just having Novice and Expert.

Many moons ago this was exactly how the Westwood Club was, actually it was called Amature and Pro at the time. Somewhere along the way the club changed to add Intermediate.

At the time there must have been some reason for this....was anyone around when the change was made and remember the reason why?

[urquhart]

Canada has Novice, Intermediate and Expert classes. The states simply runs Novice and Expert. It isnt a Westwood Club rule, it is a national one. Why we have the three classes and the states only Novice and Pro? I have no idea. The question was about a single class... all other Intermediate classes seem to have full grids, talking about changing the entire system seems a bit overkill.

I haven't raced this season but when I did I did not enjoy racing with the Expert classes, many of us were much happier when the usually combined classes were seperated. My only goal one year was to actually complete a race, finally did that at the end of the year but getting lapped every time out simply put, sucks. I have always said as long as you are battling with someone it doesnt matter as it is fun as hell out there. What isnt fun however is knowing the top 5 Experts are going to be on your group any corner and really not wanting to fuck up their season.

Don't think the midnset isn't different either. F40 was a pretty respectful class, fast guys ran out there but things were really safe. The numbers were down so Senior Superbike was added to the pack, and F40 riders (Experts in here too) got run off the track in T1 more than once. Not the slow guys neither lol ( I was fine, wasnt near the front :)

Funny how I remember fast guys not racing to avoid being bumped to Expert so they could have a whole year to "win some contingency". Anyone else remember this? You want in with the Pros, get into the top three of your class and your in.

There are fewer on the grid this year because there are fewer racers, period. I'm not there this year due to money, a few other people are taking a year or two off for the same reasons. As long as they havent sold their bikes they will likely be back.

Whew, I feel better now :)

I am sure when Kareem, Ryan and myself are back we will be running in Int Sbk as well as the other classes. I am also sure that a few of the soon to be bumped Novices come up they will join in as well. Should be fine next year, don't do anything drastic in the meantime...

Since it was asked about, my impression from F118 was to give racers that didn't stand a chance in the highly competitive classes a chance at running at the front. The satisfaction gained from racing comes in many forms, to me finally breaking 1:18 was my satisfaction as that was my first goal. It also gives racers experience passing other people, battling for positions. It is, in essence, a form of bracket racing. Some people used lap timers, this is completely against the spirit of the class and I can't comprehend why someone would do that so I won't try to explain that tactic. I can explain that it is a thrill when your best is 1:19 and you battle for 10 laps with your friends, giving all you can just trying to get DQ'd from the class. For us 1:17 riders it is a great cobwed blower at the start of the season and a great place for others to work on thier skills.

See you all at the final rounds!

[adam0289]

urguhart, you have the balls to take a shot at me for not wanting to go from never riding a sportbike straight to pro in 3 weekends because there is money on the table, yet you think its ok for a 2 or 3 year intermediate to skip superbike cause its "scary.

[amartin]

Ok then ...

My first suggestion went up like a lead balloon and admittedly it was a little drastic. Here's a second one:

Keep the class structure and designation as is. Continue to have novice, intermediate and expert. However, consider novice a shorter stepping stone and be more strict with the intermediate class.

Just as it is today, the point of novice is to prove that you can race in intermediate. You don't need to be fast, you just need to prove that you are safe and understand the flags, how to enter and exit the track and race. However we change our stance and DO NOT allow a novice to race anything except the novice class. Have two 6 lap races per day. After a minimum of 2 races (some have previous experience - some are just naturals) you are eligible to be considered for intermediate (with your rider rep / executives permission of course). At first the novice crowd won't like this because they don't get enough seat time, but the truth is - we don't want you in novice - we want you in intermediate - so prove you're safe and then the world that is WMRC is opened to you in the intermediate classes.

Then tighten up intermediate. There is the idea out there that everyone should get their chance for glory in intermediate. I agree but to a point. Lets say everyone should get to race a season of intermediate. If you want to go for the intermediate championship - do your novice in the fall as prep for a full season as intermediate. If you ever exceed a 118 laptime you will be bumped. If you've already had more than a seasons worth, you'll be bumped right away. If you haven't, you'll be bumped the next season.

This would prevent fast guys from spending years in intermediate. Some won't like it because they didn't get *their* shot, but too bad. It didn't happen for plenty of the current experts (you can figure this out by looking in the past years results). They were bumped to expert at the discretion of the executive - NOT because they finished top 3 (or top 5 in 2 - see the rulebook), and it was a good thing, both for the racers and for the expert grid.

Then make the first Superbike a 6 lap race and use the results to qualify racers for the afternoon race. If you don't make the cut, then you get to race in Superbike 'B' (it will replace F118). If you do, then you race in Superbike 'A' the main event.

[adam0289]

the 6 lap superbike qualifier is not a bad idea, followed by a 15 lap 'A' superbike race and a 10 lap 'B' superbike(replace f118) if there is not enough riders it becomes just an 'A' main. I suspect if we eliminated f118 and maybe some other classes this format would rock. AMARTEN is very smart

[dasein]

If I understand, there is a frequent suggestion here, stated directly or implicitly, that novice graduation should be based on lap time.

If I could add one comment to the mix, I would say that that lap time should also be no more than... say 10% faster than the slowest lap the novice ran in the graduating race.

If you can do that after two races, up you go. If not... the rider is maybe not quite consistent enough for intermediate yet.

So if you are running 1:20 generally, and pull off a 1:14, you are still novice.

Now, on my sixth or so race, I am sure noticing the grouping getting tighter on my... perceived lap times (cause I don't really know how I was each lap till the results from August are posted).

But I suspect a slight improvement in consistency, and I think that likely reflects some improvement in control, track knowledge, and fitness: three things that might also be important in a fledgling intermediate.

[amartin]

Novice is all about being safe and the club is really good about making sure novices are safe before bumping. We probably don't want to deviate from that. Additionally, if we were better about getting fast intermediates into expert, it shouldn't be as "scary" getting out of novice so i wouldn't think a minimum lap time need be a hard rule (of course that doesn't rule out common sense).

As far as doing a 120's then a one-off 114, the only time that happens is when someone puts another beacon further up the wall. It happened at the last track day.

But if you are a novice consistently doing 120's, i think you should ask to be considered for intermediate.

I can't speak for novice but if fitness was a requirement for expert, the only expert would be Spero.

[m_raison]

The point of this thread is about the superbike race. I'm not the expert here, but from what i can tell, I don't think there is a problem with with the way that novice, Intermediate, and expert are handled. But i like the idea of taking F118 out and replacing it with an "A" and "B" superbike race determined by the first, shorter, superbike race before lunch. This way, some novices will want to get bumped sooner rather than taking their time and using F118 as a transition. Just my opinion.

[urquhart]

Since nobody has mentioned them and Alex doesnt check the forums as much as we might I'll ask it.

What becomes of Vintage? They ran with F118 as it was deemed the safest place for their top speeds.

[Ryan Whittle]

I don't see getting rid of F118 as an option as it is currently one of the most popular classes. Austen, you've given some really god feedback, I appreciate that.

Some of the feedback I have gotten that was not posted up is that last weekend it was so damn hot that riders didn't want to enter superbike. I'm sure the faster expert riders can attest to the fatigue they encountered while learning their race craft in Intermediate classes.

Others don't want to get in the way of the experts as they do not want to affect the outcome of the top expert group. Not a matter of being scared to be lapped, but rather they don't want to screw up someone else race.

[ken lalonde]

Just get on your bike and race. I will never put blame on someone that I lapped because you are part of the show, so man up riders and learn from the fastest class we have, that is why Superbike is combined.

[dasein]

As far as doing a 120's then a one-off 114, the only time that happens is when someone puts another beacon further up the wall. It happened at the last track day.

I can't speak for novice but if fitness was a requirement for expert, the only expert would be Spero.

Well, regarding lap times, two fellow novices have claimed just that. Those claims were previous to the last track day.

Recently, I think Al ran a 1:15, while most of his laps are much slower. Just look at the 1:18 results from last round. Compare his times in the novice heats.

And as for fitness, I have definately noticed that I am feeling better on the bike in the "crotchal region". Like, my adductors are definately stronger, dude.

Mark, I was responding to the comment above that suggested moving people out of novice faster to pump up intermediate. I have no opinion on the superbike stuff, not in that league.

Me love F 1:18. Me love F 1:18 long time.

[TommyO]

Novice is all about being safe and the club is really good about making sure novices are safe before bumping. We probably don't want to deviate from that. Additionally, if we were better about getting fast intermediates into expert, it shouldn't be as "scary" getting out of novice so i wouldn't think a minimum lap time need be a hard rule (of course that doesn't rule out common sense).

As far as doing a 120's then a one-off 114, the only time that happens is when someone puts another beacon further up the wall. It happened at the last track day.

But if you are a novice consistently doing 120's, i think you should ask to be considered for intermediate.

I can't speak for novice but if fitness was a requirement for expert, the only expert would be Spero.

Awww, c'mon!......Adam is no slouch either!....... I think we should set up a ring behind the grandstand and have a 'battle' for the 'title' of the fittest racer!.......We could call it.....'Taste of Wrestling'.........:D

[Jacalyn]

I don't see getting rid of F118 as an option as it is currently one of the most popular classes.

Glad to hear as that's one of my favourites! I hope to podium one day in that class after I solve this parasite problem..... ;)

I applaud the executive for trying to maintain the club. It must be difficult to please both the really fast racers who want the best competition and are always impressive to watch (but think F118 is a waste of time), and also offer classes that keep the rest of us entertained and coming back for more and leaving our money in registration.

[Ryan Whittle]

Let's try to keep on topic. We are not going to get rid of Intermediate. We are not going to get rid of F118.

Using last weekend as an example, there were 14 starters in I600, 15 starters in IOSS, then 6 riders in ISBK. That is the issue.

[bsa_414]

Since nobody has mentioned them and Alex doesnt check the forums as much as we might I'll ask it.

What becomes of Vintage? They ran with F118 as it was deemed the safest place for their top speeds.

I do check the threads fairly regularly... I just tend to not post a lot of my opinions :)

Personally, I'd like to see time bracket racing for the intermediates or the slower experts - based anywhere between 6 and 8 seconds, and two races a day. Say F113, F119, F125 and F131. Purely based on time, who cares what you ride. If you can make a moped go 125's you're in! :)

As for the vintage guys/gals, we currently race in several faster classes in which we are allowed. But you are right F118/Vintage has been a core class for us and I'd hate to see it go.

And a comment to the person that was questioning number colours and how they relate to speed... You cannot make an old bike do 120's easily... However they do take a lot of skill to make them go around the track in the 125's+. Remember, we have skinny tires, 18" wheels, no more than 60 ponies at the rear wheel, bad suspension, and oh not so modern brakes.

cheers

[bsa_414]

Since nobody has mentioned them and Alex doesnt check the forums as much as we might I'll ask it.

What becomes of Vintage? They ran with F118 as it was deemed the safest place for their top speeds.

And thanks for remembering / sticking up for us David! Way to go.When you come back to racing I'll loan you a vintage bike for a weekend, and I'd like it if you raced with us...

[urquhart]

"Remember, we have skinny tires, 18" wheels, no more than 60 ponies at the rear wheel, bad suspension, and oh not so modern brakes."


"When you come back to racing I'll loan you a vintage bike for a weekend, and I'd like it if you raced with us... "


thanks Alex, truely, but i havent the balls to race your breed of machine... I'd rather do superbike :)

[Jimi]

I'm here to have a good time battling with other rider's, doesn't matter if I was doing

slow or fast. The point of club racing to me is having a good time with friends and

some friendly competetion. Oh and a few beers.

[Simon]

Alot of people were broke this year, so I bet that would explain alot of the issues.

I also don't like intermediate, no offense but to me, its a class where you hide for a year or 2 until you become man or woman enough to race with the big boys, :p

I know I am not alone in this thinking but when I was novice, all I could think about was getting out of it, and when i did, I'll never forget Sullivan and co lapping me at PIR, pretty humbling but boy, you learn FAST. I also remember pleading to race with the big boys at Chilliwack and had a blast, :D

Now this year, I almost quit for good, I hurt my shoulder at work, lost alot of weight and fitness, begged my physio to let me race, she said fine but take it easy, get hit first race out and receive a concussion and hurt myself again, came back out and didn't have fun at all and if I am not having fun, I am done, so skipped the 2nd to last weekend and rode the last weekend, I had fun again so I am back, sure I didn't place up front like I used to but I had a ton of fun so I am back and that's what this should be about, FUN!

[Norm]

I hope it's not too late to add my two bits' worth...

This past year I focused on F40 and Int Supersport, and it was for the reasons below that I only tried Int Open 600 one double weekend and never tried Int Superbike.

Fitness: In my first Intermediate year I was fresh off competing in triathlons and I had no trouble doing two practice sessions, two qualifying races and two mains. I missed the next year due to being too busy trucking, and when I returned this past year I was out of shape. There was no way I could safely do three classes. After having experienced being out of shape, I can now understand why some racers wouldn't want to over-extend themselves and risk injury to themselves or others.

Finances: Never mind racing a newer bike, some of us can barely afford to race our older bikes and consequently we don't want to risk damaging our bikes in "optional" classes over and above the classes we're focusing on.

Racebikes: I race an '01 R6 which would have qualified for Heavyweight Superbike (a bit of a misnomer maybe as that's a class for older bikes). For reasons mentioned below, I chose F40 as my first class. For my second class I chose Int Supersport as I figured I could compete in that class. I didn't even consider commiting to Int Open 600 or Int Superbike as I figured those classes would have bikes that mine couldn't compete against.

Competition: I like the enthusiasm shown by the Novices and how they're eager to progress to Expert. That was my goal, and I chose F40 as my first class as it seemed an established and stable class that would give me the opportunity to learn by competing amongst not-quite-so-crazy-fast Experts. It was fun, and I hope that class gets stronger. Then, when I tried Int Open 600 one double weekend, I finished mid-pack after starting at the back. That was also fun, and when I can return in better condition I'll commit to that class as a third class. However, I wouldn't even consider Int Superbike unless I could race a newer bike.

If all I wanted to do was get my money's worth tearing around a track, I'd do track days. However, I'm in it for the competition and - yes, I'll admit it - the chance for a moment of glory. That means I'll pick classes that I can "safely" compete in as well as have fun in. Regarding the word "safely", I'm glad to hear the Intermediate level is staying as it seems a good level for racers to enjoy relatively safe competition without getting too close to the occasional erratic Novice or over-competitive Expert (no offence intended to anyone, and I can't say I haven't been either erratic or over-competitive myself).

I won't even try to make any suggestions for improvement as I think the Exec are doing well. Anyway, each year has a different population of racers, and changing the class structure might be like trying to hit a moving target in the dark. I just look forward to returning and having fun with whatever's there.

[rustysgsxr]

Is it my turn to chime in. I enjoy racing period, whatever class I'm in as long as I have a good time and maybe having a battle throughout the whole race would make it even better. I think that some people could go straight into expert from novice, but I for one think that having intermediate is a good stepping stone for those that may not have the confidence to ride with the experts. On the flip-side, as on track days, most if not all of the experts ride in the fast group as to "keep it safe" out on the track. The lap times playing a big role in safety on the track Along with a slow-medium group that sometimes is a hosh posh of riders with most of the intermediate riders in it. It is the safest way to ride the track- you ride at a 1.14:00 you in this group!

In the case of safety, I would propose that if the club is trying to thickin up the expert grid, do a time cut off. Like the EMRA, I think it was a 1.02:00 average lap time for the bump to expert. As they also have a small expert grid this will add about 10 more riders to the experts without affecting the intermediate numbers. This keeps the competition level up and everyone can have fun!

That's my 2 cents, for now ;).